» Cliff 'JohnnyBax' Josephy Interview

Cliff 'JohnnyBax' Josephy, 43, is an online poker legend.  In the early days of online poker ranking on pocketfives.com, when he played a greater volume of tournaments, he was ranked the no. 1 player in the world for over a year. He won a bracelet in the 2005 WSOP in the $1500 seven-card stud event and has done well in numerous WPT events.  He took 2nd in the 2006 Aruba Classic for nearly 500k, and third in the $5k PLO event at this summer's WSOP. He has lifetime winnings of nearly $3 million. He and his friend Eric 'Sheets' Haber were the first big stars associated with an MTT focused training site, PokerXFactor and continue to create top quality videos for students there.  He was a former successful stock broker who departed that stressful world once he discovered his love and talent for poker.  He is an avid family man who resides in Syosset, New York.

You represent an older generation that came to poker later in life, but you have experienced tremendous success.  How did you discover poker and what skills allowed you to aspire to its highest heights?

I've been playing poker, some variation, my entire life.  I was always, probably, the biggest loser in the home games I played.  Whether that was high school, college or early working years.  I didn't care.  It was social and I was there to have fun.  I made good money working and I didn't mind giving some of it away.  I just wanted to play every hand.  I only played every once in a while, so when I played I wanted to get in as much action as I could.  I didn't care about the winning, I cared to see if I could outfox everybody every hand.  My friends said I was the best losing player there was.  (he chuckles)  I don't know if that was to try to get me to keep coming back every week, but they even sent me a limo to bring me to the games.

The skill set that allowed me to get good at the game later was ultimately that I decided one day I really wanted to be good at it.  I had been playing hearts on the Internet and was pretty good at it.  Then I discovered the poker and I wanted to be good.  Something about the online thing drove me.  You could measure your performance there.  I developed a laser focus and tremendous commitment to get better.  I had good math skills and general common sense necessary to excel.

I saw my dad playing online poker in December of 2003.  At that time I had no idea there was online poker.  I was totally oblivious.  So I went back home in January and saw the play money tables on PokerStars.  I saw that everyone was playing every hand.  But the guys with all the chips on the table weren't playing every hand.  They were selective and only played when they had a real hand. So it taught you have to have patience and you have to play tight.

I then started talking to Eric 'Sheets' Haber, who was a stock market client of mine at the time.  I knew he was playing some poker and he pushed me in the right direction.  He told me to buy some books. So that's how I got started.

You won your WSOP bracelet in Seven Card Stud back in 2005, a game that you had played very little before hand?  What caused you to enter that event and what advice did you receive from poker friends that helped you to do so well?

I went out to play a couple of events and the 7 card stud was 100% not on my schedule.  I had gone out for the $1k rebuy which I was looking forward to.  I had planned on winning that event, but I busted on day 1.  So I had nothing to do the next day.  I had a day off until the next event I wanted to play, so instead of going to the movies, I decided to play the 7 card stud event.  I decided I would spend $1500 on entertainment.  After I registered, I walked back down the hall with Darrel 'Gigabet' Dicken and he gave me a little advice.  Then Scotty Fischman gave me some advice.  And Mark Dickstein gave me some advice.  Honestly, I don't remember any of it.  I don't even remember the hands I played in the tournament. I could be the only WSOP bracelet winner that doesn't recall their winning hand.  It was a long time ago already.  I didn't even remember the hands the next day.  Scotty did, he watched the final table and gave more advice.  But that just goes in and out of my head.

I recall Darrel saying don't play the first bunch of hands and just see what everyone is doing.  Notice who bets their draws and who doesn't stop calling. I recall Mark giving advice on what to do with a four flush, but most of it was a blur.  Obviously I ran well.  You can't win an event like that without running well.  We all sit around and complain about tournaments where we run poorly, but the ones we win you also have to remember how well you have to run in those too.  You didn't just play well.

How did things change after that?

Didn't change at all.  Everything was really the same.  My life didn't change one iota.

You were one of the first major successful online players to get involved in a training site.  How have you found the experience at PokerXFactor and do you regret helping to educate thousands of players many who you now face in your tournaments?

I felt good about giving back to the community.  I had learned stuff from Scotty, Eric and others and I was now able to give back.  Apparently, I gave back more than I got, because these guys are now impossible to play against.  They're all a bunch of animals.  So we have thousands of players who all know how to play now. So it's rewarding.  It seems like every week, one of our guys wins one of the majors. I always get the thank yous.  Honestly, the thank yous really make me happy.  It's all good.  It makes you feel good.  Because you are in a business based on taking money from everybody else.  There's not a lot of good you can do for the community in this business.  But I feel we've done our part to help poker society.

You play both an online and major live tournament schedule, which do you prefer playing, and why?

I don't play a large volume of either.  Only with the WCOOP going on at Stars have I been playing a heavier schedule.  Even the FTOPS I didn't play much, but the WCOOP is more special.  So I try and carve these two weeks out.  Typically during the week, I don't have a lot of time.  I have other commitments that don't allow me to play much.  I have commitments to my kids and wife.  I generally play Sundays (he chuckles) I don't know why cause when you get used to losing 20 races in a row, you want to pull your hair out.  And I try to play Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights.

I also play less live.  As my kids have gotten older that has changed things.  In 2005, I had one kid that was about to turn seven so there wasn't a lot of sports going on. Now I have three kids active in sports and I can't get out.  For instance I would love to be going to the WSOP Europe, but it's just impossible.  I have three things every Saturday and four things every Sunday.  Plus things during the week where I take them to practice, so it's just too hard.  So as long as online is around and there are big enough prize pools to play in I'm not missing a lot.

I did get out for three short trips to the WSOP this year.  I had hoped the main event trip would be longer, but I went out day three.

It's all good. I just like to play poker, whether it be live or online.  I enjoy playing live because I don't play it that often.  And my lighter schedule online also keeps it enjoyable.  I like it, and when I don't like it I won't do it any longer.  But I don't see that stopping.

How has your game evolved over the years?

It's impossible.  What we did great for the community was bad for JohnnyBax.  I used to open a lot of pots and ended up stealing a lot of pots.  People didn't play back at me.  Then they started watching the videos.  In the old days, if I raised with A,Q, and they came over the top of me, I knew they were strong and I could lay it down.  In the last year, with the increased aggression and my table image, if I raised with A,10 and was re-raised I have to snap call. It has added a whole lot more volatility to the game.  I wouldn't be able to pick up the uncontested pots nearly as much.  Now you have to have a lot of race situations, 60-40's and 40-60's instead of waiting for better spots because people are constantly re-raising all in.  So I've had to change my game a lot.  There has been a lot more volatility and getting your chips in the middle.  But the game is always changing and that's the beauty of the game.  You always have to try and outsmart your opponents.  You have to know what each player is capable of and try to out think them.

What style do you feel would work the best to beat present day MTTs online?

Against certain players you have to play tight, and others you have to loosen it up.  You have to know what tournaments you are in.  Certain tournaments where you can still run over the table.  It keeps you thinking because the game is always evolving.  The next wave might be that everyone get very tight again.  All these 3 betting lunatics might get tighter. (he laughs) Hopefully that happens sooner rather than later.

If you could only choose one from each group that you feel is MORE important in tournament play, which ones would you choose?
 
Patience vs Aggression - That's a really tough one.  They are both very important.  you can teach patience much more easily than you can teach aggression.  You can't teach someone to bet, bet, bet all the time.  But you can teach someone to slow down.

Preflop Play vs Postflop Play - I view myself as more of a post flop player.  I don't 3 bet nearly as much as other players.  I view Eric Haber as more of a preflop player due to his SNG background.  I don't mind seeing a lot of flops, and feel I have an advantage after the flop.  But with players nowadays re-raising a ton more, it makes it more difficult to see a lot of flops.

Hand Selection vs Position - My game is more tailored to hand selection.

Your Table image vs Player Reads - I never know what my image is.  Some people think I'm an old nit, other people think I'm a lunatic depending on which video they have seen. So I go with my reads.
 
What do you think separates the top 5% of poker players in the world, from the rest of the field? Is there a point beyond where talent/skill cannot be taught?

Most likely hard work. You can't teach talent or skill, but you can teach them the fundamentals and all of the plays. I view talent and skill and inbred characteristics.  People have to have certain qualities that make them a good poker player.  For instance, if you can't do basic math, then you have no shot.
 
What is your biggest weakness in tournament poker?

My biggest weakness in poker is the rebuy period.  This goes back to my old days where I used to donate $2,000 per week in the live game that I played. I don't care and I keep shoving and calling all ins until I get myself a stack.  It creates a big problem for my profitability in those tournaments.  Back in the day when you could shove in a bunch of times, and even if you lost it to other players, you were confident you could get the chips back from the other players, that isn't the case nowadays.  The players are too good and you can't really take them from them without getting lucky.  I don't have that big an edge on these quality players if I have an edge at all.  So I have to change that and be a little more selective in the rebuy period. I love the rebuys.  It's just that I have a penchant for not caring and just throwing away money
 
You have been logging a fair amount of hours at 25/50 PLO cash tables. Do you see yourself focusing more on PLO cash vs tournaments in the future? How would you describe the transition? What are some pros and cons between them?

I wasn't genius enough to start at lower levels, I jumped right in at 25/50.  I didn't have a lot of free time, so cash games fit better.  I rarely have 8 hours I can devote to poker, so having 2 hours to play PLO fits better.  I'll go to the Met game with my kid and come home at 10:30.  No tournaments are running then so I jump into the cash game.  As for PLO, it's the Robin Hood in me.  I love giving money away (he laughs)  actually, I've gotten a little better.  Most of my recent losses have been attributable to bad luck.  I've been saving my hands, possibly for a video in the replayer, to show how poorly I've been running and the different spots you find yourself in PLO. I think people will be scared to ever play cash games after that (another hearty chuckle).

What players do you most respect in poker?

The five MTT players I selected recently are Shaun Deeb,  Kevin "belowabove" Saul, Jason "JCarver" Somerville, Steve "Gboro780" Gross, and Adam "csimsux" Geyer.  Those are the guys who's games I respect most.  Since I selected them for an article in the spring, a lot of them have had great scores and success at the WSOP, WPT and online.

Moving forward, what are your aspirations in the poker world?

I'm just doing a day by day thing.  I don't have some big agenda.  I'll play until it isn't any more fun to play.

You have spoken in the past of prioritizing your family, how do you maintain a healthy balance between poker and your family?

Well, it's a bad week to ask me during the WCOOP.  It's been kind of rough.  I haven't been pulling my weight, but on the other hand, I don't feel horrible. When I was in the stock market, I was never home during the day to run the kid here or there.  Now that I'm home, I'm able to do that stuff, just not this week.  It's a good problem to have with my kids at this age.  At a certain age, they won't want to be spending time.  So I'm enjoying it now.  It can still be hard when you are in 7 games, like I was yesterday and the 5 year old comes in and sits on my lap like I'm not working.  But overall, it's awesome.

Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions, Cliff.  Before you go, we have several fun questions inspired by Bravo's Inside the Actors Studio.

What is your favorite fun poker phrase/slang/acronym?

Bink.  I'll tell a story.  I was in my office in 2004 when I just started playing.  I was playing poker, which I shouldn't have been since I was at work.  I was in a SnG or tournament, I don't recall.  I was on the phone with Eric Haber talking stocks and talking poker.  I took the toggle and I moved it to the right and as the chips went in, it always makes a sound, I said 'Bink' to Eric.  To me that was the sound it made. And now I just get a kick out of every time it's mentioned.  Eric and I typed it into the chat box a lot back in the day, for fun.  And the next thing you know, everyone is saying the word bink.  So anytime I hear it years later, I get a kick out of it.  It's turned into a verb..."Oh, he binked the queen on the river again"  I just smile when I hear that. I take full credit for creating that word in the poker community.  It's the only thing in this interview that I take credit for creating a stupid word - bink.

If the poker industry disappeared completely, what other career would you most like to attempt?

I would return to the stock market.  I enjoyed it but I can only do one thing at a time.  I'm not smart enough to focus on both business and poker and have them both go well.  I can't do two things at once.  If I'm in a hand and Eric starts talking to me, I have to say "one second."  I'm not very good at multi-tasking and I have to put 100% into anything I'm doing.  I mean if I'm playing, I can do other poker related things, but my mind is on one thing.  I liked the stock market for quite a while, but I thought poker was cool and worth a shot.

When your poker career is over, what would you most like to be remembered for?

I'd like to be remembered by all the guys who we taught how to play.  I'd like them to thank me for letting them earn a living.  I would like to be remembered as someone who helped the common guy to play the game.

Read the Poker Curious review of PokerXFactor

Read the interview of good friend Eric 'Sheets' Haber

PokerXFactor instructor - Scott Clements interview